Ok so finnally got around to reading again :)So I guess little Elphie became a nun for Saint Glinda. I'm pretty sure that it's Glinda as in the former GAlinda. This is kind of weird, but I guess the book skips over the whole Wizard deeming Glinda "Glinda the Good" thing which confused me for a bit there. Pk, so Elphie is now traveling to the Vinkus with some kid. No idea who this kid is but I guess we'll figure it out. I'm assuming her trip has something to do with Fiyero's death. She talks for a bit about death. She describes it as a beautiful cycle. Even Kellswater is "dead". Very morribid this section... So he has a name, Liir. He seems to mimic the Elphie of the play. Ugly, few friends, ect. I really want to know who this kid is! Does anyone think that the cook's death matters? I mean he was a jerk and all but he doesn't seem to embody evil. Nastoya...where to begin. Have I mentioned that I love the names in this book? I mean a disgusting princess named NASToya? Hahaha. And concubine husbands? This seems to be a way the auther is giving the women some real power. I mean the society of Oz seemed much like ours in that it treated women as below men. This Amazonial society seems like a place that Elphie's strong will would fit in nicely. And she's an elephant? Oooookay. Very powerful in enforcing opinions about Animals being entitled to rights.
"To retire friom the world after making sure of the safety of the survivors of my lover. To face his widow, Sarima, in guilt and responsability, and then to remove myself from the darkening world." New favorite quote! This gives us so way deep insight into the new Elphie. She seems to have been severly scared by Fiyero's death. She fell back into religion, her childhood stability, and now seeks forgiveness. The strong, brash, blunt Elphie we know before seems to have faded. I don't think I like this new guilty Elphie quite so much. So here's where she gets the monkey :) So ice doesn't hurt her? DId she use magic to fix that or what? I think she might have subconciously done that, just like she subconciously ordered the bees to kill the cook. So she's finally at Kiamo Ko. Liir's father's house? OK so Fiyero had ANOTHER affair??? Wow. He's a bad person!!! He has kids and a wife and at least he knew Elphie in school. Wow, just Wow. Maybe it's Glinda's.... Sarima. She seems nice, but Six seems mean. And her daughter, Nor, is still breastfeeding? Thats just weird. So that wicked witch story I think might foreshadow what will happen to Elphie. Seen as wicked and then banished forever. So Elphie, being blunt, was really offensive. I mean you're meeting your lover's widow, shouldn't you be a bit nice? Anyway I'm really likkeing Sarima. She's levelheaded and nice and respectful. Her sisters on the other hand are awful! So rude and they clearly hate their sister. No wonder no one wanted to marry them. The broom seems to be believed to be magic, but I don't think it is. At least not yet. When is Elphie finally going to get some power? So it seems that Elphie is getting more and more witchy. Room in a tower, pet monkey, magic broom. Although I think she's more of a science witch. I think her lingering respect for Dillimond has awakened now with her spare time and Fiyero's death. So I'm now almost sure Lirr is Glinda's. The sisters suspected Fuyero of having an affair with her (and who wouldn't want to) and he spent so little time with Elphie that it's possible. And she finds the magic book :) yay!! Did anyone else see the Snow White reffrence? "Of apples with black skin and white flesh:to fill the stomach with greed unto Death". I'm aslo pretty sure this book came from the wizard. The only confusing thing about that theory would be why the letters in the book move. Well I guess we'll be in this castle for a while. I hope something more interesting. I'm guessing Sarima will be pretty mad if she ever lets Elphie tell her about the affiar. Until next time :)
PS. Really Princess of Duckshit? Wow Maguire, just Wow.
If Liir enters his father's house when he walked into Kiamo Ko, couldn't he be the son of Fiyero and Elphaba? I mean we have NO idea what happened in the really long time period between the two sections of reading. All we know is that Elphaba was here as like a nun. I mean she and Fiyero had that scandalous affair and he only saw Glinda once before he died. Do you really think Fiyero and Elphaba used any sort of protection? I doubt it. There is the possibility that he is Fiyero's son since he believes the magical fish/Carp told him so and then Nanny (who has to be like ANCIENT by now) brings it up when she talks to Elphaba and Elphaba doesn't deny it.
I wrote some other things before on other posts that are now like scattered all over the place and I'm just gonna bring them back here to make them easy to discuss.
Conserning the part with the Elephant, it is mentioned that they have a common enemy and were curse by the same person. I'm assuming the enemy they share is the Wizard but could have Madame Morrible been the one to curse them? Or could the enemy and the one that cursed them be the same person?
I really hate Nessarose now. She's really annoying and all she cares about is religious stuff. When do you think the shoes will become more important? I mean like when will Elphaba want them?
I also really hate everyone at Kiamo Ko. All the children just bother me. Good thing Manek dies after that icicle stabs him in the head; I liked him the least. Do you guys think Elphaba did that? She was staring at it before it killed him. That icicle must have had a really high velocity to have enough force to kill a person....oh great I'm dragging Physics into this. But we are starting to see Elphaba's magical ability with this, the Grimmerie book thing, and her saving Chistery (who is adorable when he learns to talk! I knew Doctor Dillamond's theories would be important!). Anyway, Sarima bothers me because she doesn't want to listen to Elphaba. I understand that she is still grieving for her husband and all but still. She could have been a bit nicer to Elphaba and let her ask for forgiveness. The sisters are just obnoxious. Enough said.
Also! Favorite Wicked song reference!If you know me well enough (or know the songs well enough) you know what song it is. :) " 'I suppose I need to apologize for that flurry of Chistery,' she said. 'I know I am you guest here at Kiamo Ko. I just flew off the handle' " (259).
Okay I'm done now. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays and Happy New Year (if I don't post until 2011) everyone! :)
Hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas Eve and Christmas! :)
I haven't had the chance to post in a while, sorry about that, but I have been reading. I'm not sure if what I'm going to post is in this section that Maddie listed up above, but I think it is...hopefully you guys will know what I'm talking about.
I have to admit first off that this book is getting slightly creep..Nor still breast-feeding? and Nastoya being an elephant? Well, I guess there are worse animals she could be..
On page 298 in my copy Oatsie is talking to Elphaba and she says, "One never learns how the witch becomes wicked, or whether that was the right choice for her-is it ever the right choice? Does the devil ever struggle to be good again, or if so is he not a devil? It is at the very least a question of definitions.” I thought this was interesting because throughout the book we have been discussing whether or not it was Elphaba’s decision to be become wicked or if other people and their actions caused her to become wicked. It also raises the question of if Elphaba wants to be good again and attempts to do so, does that make her wicked still? Just like if the devil struggles to be good, is he really still the devil anymore? I think that if someone tries to be good again they are no longer wicked and evil because they accept that what they are doing is either wrong or just not what they want to do anymore, so they want to change their ways. Most of the time, a true wicked person will not realize what they are doing is wrong or they have no desire to change their ways even when they know it’s wrong.
On 370 in my copy it says, “For the first time, Elphie wished that Liir had at least an undertone of green in his skin.” Is this just saying that Elphaba wants Liir to be her child even though Liir isn’t? I’m so confused on who’s child Liir is…I think it’s Elphaba’s and Fiyero’s child to be honest. They were having an affair and like Kate said it skips a lot between the two sections of reading. I think that Elphaba wants Liir to have an undertone of green in his skin so it would make it obvious who’s child it was instead of having everyone ask her. I think she doesn’t want to admit to herself that she has a child, but I really don’t know why.
I agree with Maddie on the not liking the new Elphaba as much. I liked how she was before; strong, independent, in-your-face attitude sort of thing. Like Maddie said, she’s now more into religion, and she is starting to feel bad for some of her actions-she feels guilt now. This is strange for the character of Elphaba that we have known throughout the story so far. I also like Sarima because of the reasons listed from Maddie and Kate, and all the other sisters are just flat out mean and rude. Don’t like them too much.
I think that Sarima doesn’t want to talk to Elphaba yet because she is still in the process of healing from Fiyero’s death and I think, in a way, she knows that Elphaba was having an affair with Fiyero who was her husband at the time. I don’t think she actually wants to admit that Fiyero didn’t truly love her and having Elphaba sitting right in front of her talking about her husband was a kind of insult to Sarima. Just an opinion..could be totally wrong. I also think Nessarose’s shoes will come into play by the end of the story. I don’t think Elphaba really remembers about them much, and doesn’t realize the significance of them.
I’m not sure what else to say, but I’ll keep reading throughout the week and post one more time this week. Have a wonderful break everyone! :)
Hello, Fellow Wicked Lovers! It’s been awhile, how you all doing? Hope everyone had a wonderful holiday. Anyway, I’ve been visiting family for the past couple of days. But I am back now! (I can hear you all cheering through my computer. How sweet...)
So, after reading past posts, there is some talk to Liir. I see that we all are thinking the same thing: IS LIIR ELPHABA AND FIYERO’S SON?!??! Well, to this, I know the answer. Yes, Liir is their son. You all may be wondering how I came across this interesting piece of information. Well, to tell the truth, awhile back I read the little description of “Son of a Witch”. (The one on the back of the book) And the main character is Liir. Unless the author is completely messing with us, Liir is the “Son of a Witch”, or Elphaba. And I’m pretty sure he is also Fiyero’s son. Elphaba doesn’t seem like the kind to…you know… sleep around.
One thing I found particularly interesting in this section was Killyjoy, the cook’s dog. Elphaba believes the dog is a “Makejoy”, rather than a Killyjoy (229). I just thought that line was adorable. Also, I don’t know if it’s because when I read books like “To Kill a Mockingbird” and “The Grapes of Wrath”, but it seems that dogs are often symbols. This dog could be a symbol. To me, the dog shows a connection between Liir and Elphaba. Liir quickly becomes friends with the dog, which shows that he cares for animals. Elphaba was one of the few pushing for rights for Animals, and “some people thought for a time he might actually be a Dog” (229). Even though the dog wasn’t actually an Animal, his resemblance to one and his friendship with Liir shows that Liir may have inherited his mother’s passion for Animal rights.
So, Cheyenne said that Sarima knew that Fiyero was having an affair with Elphaba. I agree. When the two women are talking, Sarima says “It seems to me that you have come here to- shall we say- relieve yourself of some sad business or other. You have the look about you” (254). When I read this, it sounded more like “I know what you did and hate your face.” She must know that Elphaba is the woman her husband had an affair with. The one thing that I don’t understand is why does she care so much that her husband had an affair? Wasn’t she the freak who told him to sleep with her sisters? What’s the difference between him sleeping with someone she does know and someone she doesn’t? The only plausible answer I can think of is that she may have correctly guessed that Fiyero was in love with Elphaba. I agree with Cheyenne that Sarima was angry with him for not being in love with her. BUT I do think its Sarima’s fault he cheated on her. She might have thought that offering her sisters to him was some great deed, but you know what they say. “No good deed goes unpunished”. She should have actually worked on their relationship.
See you guys on the next post! And sorry for my lame Wicked musical reference. Not my best. ;) And just so you guys know, I broke a key while typing this. My semicolon key will never be the same…
Thank you Casey! Liir is obviously Elphaba and Fiyero's son! I sort of had a feeling from the beginning but all the evidence is pointing towards it. If Fiyero was having another affair why would Elphaba have the product of the different affair. It doesn't make sense.
I also agree on Sarima knowing about the affair. Cheyenne and Casey are on the right track I think with Sarima knowing about how Fiyero loved Elphaba. While she may have offered up her sisters to sleep with him she never offered one of them as his new wife. He wanted him to have a play-thing if you will. She always loved him and wanted him to be in love with her too. I think that by giving him permission to sleep with her sisters she hoped he would turn it down to prove his love for her.
The whole voyage up to Kiamo Ko was weird. a lot of it just seemed like really weird stuff. The whole Elphaba running through water to save the monkey is weird since Elphaba is allergic to water. It proves how passionate she is about animals though that she would run through something that physically hurts her. I like that, but new Elphaba bugs me like she does everyone else from what I'm reading. She has no passion anymore it seems like. She just wants to be forgiven then crawl in a corner to die. Men should not do this to you! Stupid Fiyero.
Ok so finnally got around to reading again :)So I guess little Elphie became a nun for Saint Glinda. I'm pretty sure that it's Glinda as in the former GAlinda. This is kind of weird, but I guess the book skips over the whole Wizard deeming Glinda "Glinda the Good" thing which confused me for a bit there.
ReplyDeletePk, so Elphie is now traveling to the Vinkus with some kid. No idea who this kid is but I guess we'll figure it out. I'm assuming her trip has something to do with Fiyero's death. She talks for a bit about death. She describes it as a beautiful cycle. Even Kellswater is "dead". Very morribid this section...
So he has a name, Liir. He seems to mimic the Elphie of the play. Ugly, few friends, ect. I really want to know who this kid is!
Does anyone think that the cook's death matters? I mean he was a jerk and all but he doesn't seem to embody evil.
Nastoya...where to begin. Have I mentioned that I love the names in this book? I mean a disgusting princess named NASToya? Hahaha. And concubine husbands? This seems to be a way the auther is giving the women some real power. I mean the society of Oz seemed much like ours in that it treated women as below men. This Amazonial society seems like a place that Elphie's strong will would fit in nicely.
And she's an elephant? Oooookay. Very powerful in enforcing opinions about Animals being entitled to rights.
"To retire friom the world after making sure of the safety of the survivors of my lover. To face his widow, Sarima, in guilt and responsability, and then to remove myself from the darkening world." New favorite quote! This gives us so way deep insight into the new Elphie. She seems to have been severly scared by Fiyero's death. She fell back into religion, her childhood stability, and now seeks forgiveness. The strong, brash, blunt Elphie we know before seems to have faded. I don't think I like this new guilty Elphie quite so much.
ReplyDeleteSo here's where she gets the monkey :) So ice doesn't hurt her? DId she use magic to fix that or what? I think she might have subconciously done that, just like she subconciously ordered the bees to kill the cook.
So she's finally at Kiamo Ko. Liir's father's house? OK so Fiyero had ANOTHER affair??? Wow. He's a bad person!!! He has kids and a wife and at least he knew Elphie in school. Wow, just Wow. Maybe it's Glinda's....
Sarima. She seems nice, but Six seems mean. And her daughter, Nor, is still breastfeeding? Thats just weird. So that wicked witch story I think might foreshadow what will happen to Elphie. Seen as wicked and then banished forever.
So Elphie, being blunt, was really offensive. I mean you're meeting your lover's widow, shouldn't you be a bit nice? Anyway I'm really likkeing Sarima. She's levelheaded and nice and respectful. Her sisters on the other hand are awful! So rude and they clearly hate their sister. No wonder no one wanted to marry them.
The broom seems to be believed to be magic, but I don't think it is. At least not yet. When is Elphie finally going to get some power?
So it seems that Elphie is getting more and more witchy. Room in a tower, pet monkey, magic broom. Although I think she's more of a science witch. I think her lingering respect for Dillimond has awakened now with her spare time and Fiyero's death.
So I'm now almost sure Lirr is Glinda's. The sisters suspected Fuyero of having an affair with her (and who wouldn't want to) and he spent so little time with Elphie that it's possible.
And she finds the magic book :) yay!! Did anyone else see the Snow White reffrence? "Of apples with black skin and white flesh:to fill the stomach with greed unto Death". I'm aslo pretty sure this book came from the wizard. The only confusing thing about that theory would be why the letters in the book move.
Well I guess we'll be in this castle for a while. I hope something more interesting. I'm guessing Sarima will be pretty mad if she ever lets Elphie tell her about the affiar. Until next time :)
PS. Really Princess of Duckshit? Wow Maguire, just Wow.
If Liir enters his father's house when he walked into Kiamo Ko, couldn't he be the son of Fiyero and Elphaba? I mean we have NO idea what happened in the really long time period between the two sections of reading. All we know is that Elphaba was here as like a nun. I mean she and Fiyero had that scandalous affair and he only saw Glinda once before he died. Do you really think Fiyero and Elphaba used any sort of protection? I doubt it. There is the possibility that he is Fiyero's son since he believes the magical fish/Carp told him so and then Nanny (who has to be like ANCIENT by now) brings it up when she talks to Elphaba and Elphaba doesn't deny it.
ReplyDeleteI wrote some other things before on other posts that are now like scattered all over the place and I'm just gonna bring them back here to make them easy to discuss.
Conserning the part with the Elephant, it is mentioned that they have a common enemy and were curse by the same person. I'm assuming the enemy they share is the Wizard but could have Madame Morrible been the one to curse them? Or could the enemy and the one that cursed them be the same person?
I really hate Nessarose now. She's really annoying and all she cares about is religious stuff. When do you think the shoes will become more important? I mean like when will Elphaba want them?
I also really hate everyone at Kiamo Ko. All the children just bother me. Good thing Manek dies after that icicle stabs him in the head; I liked him the least. Do you guys think Elphaba did that? She was staring at it before it killed him. That icicle must have had a really high velocity to have enough force to kill a person....oh great I'm dragging Physics into this. But we are starting to see Elphaba's magical ability with this, the Grimmerie book thing, and her saving Chistery (who is adorable when he learns to talk! I knew Doctor Dillamond's theories would be important!). Anyway, Sarima bothers me because she doesn't want to listen to Elphaba. I understand that she is still grieving for her husband and all but still. She could have been a bit nicer to Elphaba and let her ask for forgiveness. The sisters are just obnoxious. Enough said.
Also! Favorite Wicked song reference!If you know me well enough (or know the songs well enough) you know what song it is. :)
" 'I suppose I need to apologize for that flurry of Chistery,' she said. 'I know I am you guest here at Kiamo Ko. I just flew off the handle' " (259).
Okay I'm done now. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays and Happy New Year (if I don't post until 2011) everyone! :)
Hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas Eve and Christmas! :)
ReplyDeleteI haven't had the chance to post in a while, sorry about that, but I have been reading. I'm not sure if what I'm going to post is in this section that Maddie listed up above, but I think it is...hopefully you guys will know what I'm talking about.
I have to admit first off that this book is getting slightly creep..Nor still breast-feeding? and Nastoya being an elephant? Well, I guess there are worse animals she could be..
On page 298 in my copy Oatsie is talking to Elphaba and she says, "One never learns how the witch becomes wicked, or whether that was the right choice for her-is it ever the right choice? Does the devil ever struggle to be good again, or if so is he not a devil? It is at the very least a question of definitions.” I thought this was interesting because throughout the book we have been discussing whether or not it was Elphaba’s decision to be become wicked or if other people and their actions caused her to become wicked. It also raises the question of if Elphaba wants to be good again and attempts to do so, does that make her wicked still? Just like if the devil struggles to be good, is he really still the devil anymore? I think that if someone tries to be good again they are no longer wicked and evil because they accept that what they are doing is either wrong or just not what they want to do anymore, so they want to change their ways. Most of the time, a true wicked person will not realize what they are doing is wrong or they have no desire to change their ways even when they know it’s wrong.
On 370 in my copy it says, “For the first time, Elphie wished that Liir had at least an undertone of green in his skin.” Is this just saying that Elphaba wants Liir to be her child even though Liir isn’t? I’m so confused on who’s child Liir is…I think it’s Elphaba’s and Fiyero’s child to be honest. They were having an affair and like Kate said it skips a lot between the two sections of reading. I think that Elphaba wants Liir to have an undertone of green in his skin so it would make it obvious who’s child it was instead of having everyone ask her. I think she doesn’t want to admit to herself that she has a child, but I really don’t know why.
I agree with Maddie on the not liking the new Elphaba as much. I liked how she was before; strong, independent, in-your-face attitude sort of thing. Like Maddie said, she’s now more into religion, and she is starting to feel bad for some of her actions-she feels guilt now. This is strange for the character of Elphaba that we have known throughout the story so far. I also like Sarima because of the reasons listed from Maddie and Kate, and all the other sisters are just flat out mean and rude. Don’t like them too much.
I think that Sarima doesn’t want to talk to Elphaba yet because she is still in the process of healing from Fiyero’s death and I think, in a way, she knows that Elphaba was having an affair with Fiyero who was her husband at the time. I don’t think she actually wants to admit that Fiyero didn’t truly love her and having Elphaba sitting right in front of her talking about her husband was a kind of insult to Sarima. Just an opinion..could be totally wrong. I also think Nessarose’s shoes will come into play by the end of the story. I don’t think Elphaba really remembers about them much, and doesn’t realize the significance of them.
I’m not sure what else to say, but I’ll keep reading throughout the week and post one more time this week. Have a wonderful break everyone! :)
Hello, Fellow Wicked Lovers! It’s been awhile, how you all doing? Hope everyone had a wonderful holiday. Anyway, I’ve been visiting family for the past couple of days. But I am back now! (I can hear you all cheering through my computer. How sweet...)
ReplyDeleteSo, after reading past posts, there is some talk to Liir. I see that we all are thinking the same thing: IS LIIR ELPHABA AND FIYERO’S SON?!??! Well, to this, I know the answer. Yes, Liir is their son. You all may be wondering how I came across this interesting piece of information. Well, to tell the truth, awhile back I read the little description of “Son of a Witch”. (The one on the back of the book) And the main character is Liir. Unless the author is completely messing with us, Liir is the “Son of a Witch”, or Elphaba. And I’m pretty sure he is also Fiyero’s son. Elphaba doesn’t seem like the kind to…you know… sleep around.
One thing I found particularly interesting in this section was Killyjoy, the cook’s dog. Elphaba believes the dog is a “Makejoy”, rather than a Killyjoy (229). I just thought that line was adorable. Also, I don’t know if it’s because when I read books like “To Kill a Mockingbird” and “The Grapes of Wrath”, but it seems that dogs are often symbols. This dog could be a symbol. To me, the dog shows a connection between Liir and Elphaba. Liir quickly becomes friends with the dog, which shows that he cares for animals. Elphaba was one of the few pushing for rights for Animals, and “some people thought for a time he might actually be a Dog” (229). Even though the dog wasn’t actually an Animal, his resemblance to one and his friendship with Liir shows that Liir may have inherited his mother’s passion for Animal rights.
So, Cheyenne said that Sarima knew that Fiyero was having an affair with Elphaba. I agree. When the two women are talking, Sarima says “It seems to me that you have come here to- shall we say- relieve yourself of some sad business or other. You have the look about you” (254). When I read this, it sounded more like “I know what you did and hate your face.” She must know that Elphaba is the woman her husband had an affair with. The one thing that I don’t understand is why does she care so much that her husband had an affair? Wasn’t she the freak who told him to sleep with her sisters? What’s the difference between him sleeping with someone she does know and someone she doesn’t? The only plausible answer I can think of is that she may have correctly guessed that Fiyero was in love with Elphaba. I agree with Cheyenne that Sarima was angry with him for not being in love with her. BUT I do think its Sarima’s fault he cheated on her. She might have thought that offering her sisters to him was some great deed, but you know what they say. “No good deed goes unpunished”. She should have actually worked on their relationship.
See you guys on the next post! And sorry for my lame Wicked musical reference. Not my best. ;) And just so you guys know, I broke a key while typing this. My semicolon key will never be the same…
Thank you Casey! Liir is obviously Elphaba and Fiyero's son! I sort of had a feeling from the beginning but all the evidence is pointing towards it. If Fiyero was having another affair why would Elphaba have the product of the different affair. It doesn't make sense.
ReplyDeleteI also agree on Sarima knowing about the affair. Cheyenne and Casey are on the right track I think with Sarima knowing about how Fiyero loved Elphaba. While she may have offered up her sisters to sleep with him she never offered one of them as his new wife. He wanted him to have a play-thing if you will. She always loved him and wanted him to be in love with her too. I think that by giving him permission to sleep with her sisters she hoped he would turn it down to prove his love for her.
The whole voyage up to Kiamo Ko was weird. a lot of it just seemed like really weird stuff. The whole Elphaba running through water to save the monkey is weird since Elphaba is allergic to water. It proves how passionate she is about animals though that she would run through something that physically hurts her. I like that, but new Elphaba bugs me like she does everyone else from what I'm reading. She has no passion anymore it seems like. She just wants to be forgiven then crawl in a corner to die. Men should not do this to you! Stupid Fiyero.